EQUIPMENT COMMITTEE 12/11-12/02 – BILLINGS
Attendees: Henry Speelman, Richard Willoughby, Joe Wulfekuhle, Kevin Erickson, Richard Grady, Sue Beron, Ann Vogt, Bruce Motterm, Scott Kuehn, Roberta Whitlock, Mike McClellan
Public Rep: Bob Bell – NRWCA
Review of Charter – verbal approval received, minor revisions were made by NRCG
Budget: 0 for committee work; budget for workshops needs to be developed and presented to agencies for cost to be divided; approved for 2 workshops; 1 in Billings/1 in Missoula
Report of tasks:
Buses: Pictures of cargo containment; description of additional types (seats removed, metal cage bolted in); hauling of saws/fuel – Billings purges saws each load; BDC had trouble w/crews bringing multiple packs not the excess tools.
Issues: hauling of fuel/fusees; minimum size for gear; types of containment that is acceptable; insurance cost; long haul of crews on school buses (double lunches & no cooler is a health concern, second operator costs $ w/little benefit).
Recommendations: Transportation of crews by school buses should be limited to travel within a 10-hour drive. Cost of a second operator does not appear to benefit Government. (This matter is being reviewed by the Mob Board.) Travel beyond a 10-hour drive should be obtained by other methods if possible.
Samples of acceptable containment will be provided at the inspector training this spring.
Crews should be limited to the established weight limits regardless of the method of transportation. Storage of additional packs or gear beyond the established standards is not available on buses.
Market Survey of overhead costs for bus transportation should be done before new rate is established. Insurance costs have risen in the past year, partly due to 9-11 and partly due to changes in the insurance industry. Committee noted that insurance companies have warned a 20-300% increase is expected.
Transports: John & Harvey not here – deferred
Rich W will follow up for report & forward to Roberta/Grady by 1/8/03
Spill Containment Kits:
Rich W briefed on 10% rule from EPA; kits run $75-100; Mark III kit is
designed for 5 gallon can so is too small for our needs; any fuel use – except
dolmar requires containment capability; EPA will defer to agency policy (which
does not exist); Scott K shared that Plum Creek requires each job site has to
have 1 spill kit.
Recommendation: Fuel trucks shall have spill containment kit to handle 10% of the fuel load; and absorbing material or other method to handle drips that occur during fueling; no adjustment in price because this is required by EPA; upon inspection – NO LEAKS are allowed – reject vehicle or release as soon as replacement can be replaced made.
Hand Washing Stations: No specs for stand alone unit in place in NIFC; cost is $480-580/day 6-10 sinks (includes both hot/cold water); contractor provides graywater disposal, soap, towels, service, potable water, and on-site person to manage both shower/kitchen and sinks.
Need specs for free standing unit to be near toilets (Joe will contact private companies and compare to national contract)
Follow Up: Joe, Mary, & Sue gather copies of EERA’s, specs or standards from National Contract, commercial sources to see if a standard can be set for the coming season.
Water tender/trucks: Tactical – no pump spec is noted therefore homelite trash pump can meet requirements; requires hoses, wyes, (approx 80% of the established engine requirements); hose & fittings are intended to use in urban interface to support structural engine. The intent/use of tactical is in the Chapter 20 guidelines, not in the supplement to the EERA.
Recommendation: Provide more communication/training of IMTs with in use of tenders; develop pump spec for tenders only sufficient to pump up hill for the length of hose on truck (pressure pump vs volume pump); clarify that nozzles are for emergency only (safety), not for hose lay.
Clarify and add language to actual EERA that the RO will determine how equipment is paid – contractor needs to be responsible for assuring order matches work they are being assigned.
Compliment list review: 1” nozzle NPSH combination fog/straight stream (separate line for 1 ½ “ NF to 1 “ NPSH reducer)
2 ea portable hand lights (from NFPA?) – can we change to 1 hand light and 1 headlight or just 1 handlight or drop completely?
Add PPE, head/hand lights, etc to inspection forms
Engine:
CAFS: Contractor association letter recommends we should use it more – agency studies show aspirated water is more efficient; new structural firefighting engines are not being built with CAFS; Specs are in NFPA 1906
Wildland Fire assists to some extend in structural protection not structural suppression. CAFS is most efficient in structural suppression (interior).
Follow up: Committee needs to find out from users what type of equipment is really needed and adjust spec/requirement accordingly
Multiple studies out there – gather and incorporate into review.
ICS Equipment Typing – pump ratings for T-3 engines
Payment is built in instead of separate line item. Concern is that we are paying for something that isn’t being used or needed. Discussion on most administration of having a separate price for CAFS if used vs incorporating into daily rate.
Recommendation: Straight 5% adjustment of un-operated rate for metered system of any type. No adjustment for any other foam (i.e. eductor/etc). Committee will continue to pursue change for future years.
Fuel Trucks: Insurance is escalating; trucks stationed at tanks are out of service from normal operation; long shifts create personnel problems; can’t provide full time fuel service due to regular customers still needing service and lack of equipment or personnel to devote to incident; consider use of pup or mobile unit with gov’t employee dispensing; IDL has Chevron dealer that has tanks on trailer used for construction sites –Questions on used of similar system needs to be researched. (i.e. is grounding, vaulted tank or cement slab required)
Recommendation: Market survey for cost adjustment; committee will continue to research feasibility to use of mobile units. (may be able to provide info to CO’s by fire season but not in time for Chap 20 revision)
Rich & Kevin will follow up on
Graywater: Start at 6 am when showers are opened, then work till 11 pm when showers close; daily rate plus mileage is the current method of hire; needs second operational period; disposal fees should be reimbursed not included in rate; should we specify length of hose/nozzles?; specs – Industry standards vary, ND/ID may not have any standards or different standards.
Recommendation: add operational rate to cover long shift; have shower provide 2nd bladder bag if long distance to dispose of water (Roberta will follow up w/National Contract CO/COTR)
ATV: FS is using ASI classes for users (national certification) – basic use, cost is free w/purchase of ATV or $35-40 per person; train the trainer certifications are also being done by some offices; refresher is up to agency policy; FWS is being encouraged to use these for fire; use is in camp or delivery of supplies for rehab/mob up; St. of Idaho is using for Rx, small fires – including use of trailers.
What is other types of transport are available – gaters, mules, golf carts, etc
Is battery powered ok? What type of certification for operating of alternative types of equipment, safety equipment such as helmets, etc? Question is can operator hear radio when using helmet, use of ATV helmet on fire line conflicts with JHA for fire line safety because helmet is not fire certified, but a fire hard hat is not acceptable for operating equipment. If user needs to use radio – suggested using a flight helmet but again the safety, use policies, etc may conflict.
$57/day in book; $70-80/day should be fair for 4-wheelers when rented from private owner; rental from dealership would need to be negotiated.
Most agencies have some type of training/certification – some better than others.
Recommendation: look at rate this year; defer for further research on minimum requirements, accessories, safety, alternative sources, training, type of fuel/battery, ROP, etc
Porta Potties: Summary of findings, survey, inspection sheet, log instead of shift tickets, simplify method of hire etc. Question of what the commercial rate is, have we considered reducing the rental after X days or X number of units ordered.
Recommendation: Set a rate that includes rental, delivery, and service– develop a log instead of shift ticket – commercial invoicing – inspection form. Sue will send what is available to Roberta.
Wheel Chocks: Spec/standards SAE J348 is flawed. Chocks.com has guideline on number of chocks required for various degrees of grade. Must comply with NFPA.
Basic requirements are that chock must be planed, solid (not officially out yet), with handle. Height depends on tire size – should be level with rim.
Rich Grady will follow up
Skidgine: comment from public that we require too much items on skidgines. Group agreed that this equipment is an off road engine and compliment is needed. No change recommended.
Heavy Equipment: See white paper from Jim Steele to Jack Kirkendall.
Dozer Bosses are now managing other types of equipment, equipment is being developed to do more suppression and rehab work, equipment is being under utilized for their capabilities, etc
San Dimas is doing research on use of this equipment; CD is being developed to help identify what equipment looks like; request them to develop a film of use
Caution: Clarify use for tactical support as opposed to logging operation (1 unit may have performed a logging/timber sale during incident)
Follow Up: Establish Ad-hoc committee to inform and develop training on use and capabilities of this type of equipment, Kevin will check with status of SDDC research; Scott K and Obie O’Brian will assist committee
CDL/GVW/GVWR: Fill limiting letter from NRCG, GVWR vs GVW; FMCSR sticker is satifactory (per US DOT – Kris Wilson) a CVSA Sticker is not required.
Page 70 of 90 states All vehicles….. shall have a current CVSA sticker.
Clarify what is needed for all states in GA, vs federal, vs policy
CDL required when driving for hire over 10,000 lb – confusion and conflicts in interpretation. IIFBMH is confusing.
FHWA can be obtained from any certified mechanic, FMCSR is issued by DOT. We may be impacting DOT more that they can handle. We need to define what is really needed.
IIFBMH 24.3-2 DOT definition of commercial vehicle that require DOT inspections – does not require CDL or drug testing, but does need a medical
Conflict in FMCSR 390.5 and 383.5, 391.43, 391.45. Further research – Rich Grady will handle; Bruce – check on ID CDL requirements. Contact Pat Metzger (MT DOT in Missoula).
Follow Up: Committee will pursue with intent of clarifying in time for this update.
Weed Free: Rich Grady will get copy of State; Sue FS Regional; Bruce copy of IDL; Ann copy of BLM; Henry confirm is BIA has one or not; and Mike will check w/ NPS; FW has lots but none are standard – none address fire use.
Forward to Sue. A summary will be made and mailed to committee for review
Bin Items from Wed:
Distributing info to local mob boards, associations, private contractors, agency personnel
- Web site – email notes to Tracy & to group (Sue/Roberta)
- NRCG letter explaining what they are and how they work has been sent out (Boatner)
- Mob meetings (Grady will contact Boards)
- Copies of newsletters from contractor association
NRWCA – Spring Meeting 8 am March 7-8, 2003, Holiday Inn Parkside, Missoula
Bret Waters is our NRCG Board Rep
Mark Romney (KNF) will be new Op’s Committee Chair
Gordon Geiser – Florence RFD, Contractor Rep for Ravalli County
Requested to be removed from NRCG & NWCG
Will provide local support only
Joe will follow up in about 2 weeks and coordinate with Sue (Ravalli Co has lots of RFD members that are also contractors – impacts to pool?)
Budget from State is down and may impact some of the programs with cooperators.
Introduced Dave Ronsen & reviewed letter of 11/22/02 sent from NRWCA. Concerns include:
- Engine Inventory
- Insurance – Chapter 20 mentions insurance in short statement; has seen engine/tenders have no insurance coverage at all
- Bozeman refuses to dispatch engines with more than 2 persons; (group clarified that the fire determines if 3 persons are needed not dispatch)
- Automatic Foam – likes foam; believes we should require/expect to use; this is only GA not requiring it; (group pointed out that eductor systems are fine – FS may be getting rid of them; complex systems require training but equipment is utilized for short periods of time; SDDC has not found a commercial foam inductor that can meet the requirements noted in this letter, spec needs to be rewritten). Questioned where info was from – response was Chapter 20 from other Regions or NWCG.
o Batch mixing is being phased out due to environmental issues
o Blizzard Wizzards are approximately $350
o Rowbin 500 – Gov’t price is approx $1700
- 2-way Radio Requirements – NR does not require, only GA that does not; recommends we require. Group discussed openly the pro/con of requiring contractor’s to have radios vs supplying from cache; 6-700 mhz radios cost approx of $700, some agencies are switching to digital; some RFD have an annual budget of $1200; cloning and purging impacts – Gov’t owns frequencies and has to purge at time of release.
Ronsen stated that Gov’t is paying for a service from a contractor and should not have to provide anything – including radios.
Group: this GA considers contractors as a supplemental resource and does not consider privates as part of the cooperative work force; Chap 20 isn’t the place to make the change nor is it intended to be the same as a competitive contracts - it is for EERA types of resources.
- Engine complement – Group will review and make recommendation. Discussion regarding garden hose - is it considered a consumable item?
- Group reviewed list and will consider a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, I, l, & o. The rest is already required or other impacts more than just cost & availability (i.e. chainsaws).
- Inspection/Process: Group still supports GVWR standards; we will pursue CVSA requirements and will make decision at a later date; workshop is being planned again
- CAFS – not a large need; Ronsen negotiates EERA so he can continue as in the past
-
Aircraft Rescue & Firefighting – Grady will call
Helena Technology; Sue & Rich W. will pursue with aviation folks; Ronsen
can provide FAA specs if we need – 1/8 we will have recommendation to group/Bus
Committee
- Hourly Rates – DNRC will go with daily rates for private; hourly unoperated for local gov’t
- Dispatch – mob boards are in place and working on this – centralized dispatch is not going 100% perfect – each zone is meeting to look at improvements
Reviewed letter from NRCG
Inspection Workshop:
Joe, Kevin, Roberta, Sue (Missoula); Darrel, Henry, Ann (Billings) are coordinators
Grady/DOT oversite
Kevin/Joe – will receive Nomination – draft letter (Billings/MSO/Either) send to Ann for review; Send mid-Jan/nominations due mid/Fed/selection letter with instructions (nomination for inspection team) out by end of Feb
Objective: Concentrate on Chapter 20
1 day hands on
Was ½ day 3 full days then ½ day – will do the same this year; cadre comes a day earlier
Scott K was big help with list of heavy equipment w/operators that was available
Conference Room – need power point, room for 60/70 participants
Will post info on web site – both equipment and NRCG
Day 1 – 1300-1700
NRCG Report
Business
Expectations / Inspections
Chapter 20
Day 2 – 8-1700
Classroom; Chap 20 review of equipment; cache presentation?; DOT participation Metzger and Wilson; Geo McLaughlin
?? incorporate a refresher? (1st 2 days then they can leave) OR continuing ed
OBJECTIVES – Chapter 20; Direction for the Future/Format Method; Improving Inspections (application form sent with nomination letter); Inspection Teams; Feed back of 2002 (obtained ahead of time)
Speakers:
Equipment Committee
DOT / State & Federal (George McLaughlin 1st; Metzger/Rideout)
CO – contractual issues
Finance – BLM (Ann or Tom), FS (Roberta or Rod R), DNRC (Joe or Tim Murphy)
Handouts/Logistics
Job Aid (Bruce is collection point – Roberta will edit and get published)
FMC Safety Regs (Kevin)
Fireline Handbook and IIBMH
SDC CD
Motels, site location, inspections of equipment, local contacts
Lengthy discussion on the inventory “inspection” sheet – what is the use when we have the certification, national inspection forms, contractor required to provide inventory list at time of inspection (which is used to verify items are there & operational)
Tom Boatner spoke w/group – asked for feedback to send to Board
Joe – report on Tactical 8x8 Water Tender and Field Crash Support (email), had informed company they have to sign up in Canada – can come to workshop in April. Group discussed: decided not to invite to workshop – Joe will follow up w/company
Kevin – MTDC & SDC are accepting proposals for types of equipment that needs or we would like to have researched – send directly to George Jackson. Due tomorrow (12/13)